Season 2 Ep. 18 - Pimples, Peels & Pinpoints featuring Natalie Anchondo

Can you microneedle over active acne? What about applying topicals immediately after treatment? In this episode of The Skintrovert, I’m joined by Natalie Anchondo for an honest conversation around two of aesthetics’ most debated microneedling topics. We break down Natalie’s approach, how she evaluates the skin in front of her, treatment considerations, post-care, and why personalized decision-making matters more than one-size-fits-all rules. If you’ve ever questioned the “right” way to approach microneedling in acne-prone skin, this episode is for you.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Hey y'all, welcome to the Skintrovert. I'm your host, Sam Bazil. You guys, today is going to be such a fun episode, and I think you guys are going to like it because I'm bringing on a special guest today that I have a lot of respect for, and some of you may as well. Natalie has been training our industry and providing a very unique take on our treatments for melasma, rosacea, acne. Her way of bringing science into the treatment room is something that our industry craves. It's something that we need. So I am super excited for Natalie to join us today. And if you don't know Natalie, let me give you a little bit of an introduction. So Natalie is the founder of Lux and Lav in Colorado Springs, Colorado. She hosts masterclasses for advanced aesthetics and other providers that are just craving that knowledge. She is also a skin pen ambassador and brings such a breath of fresh air to this community. So I am excited to bring her here because I want to pick her very intelligent brain on a hot button topic right now in aesthetics. And that hot button topic is microneedling over acne and then applying chemical peels or topicals post-microneedling. She has some interesting information that I think you guys are gonna want to hear. So stay tuned and welcome Natalie. Hey Natalie, I am so excited for you to be here. Just having you on the Skintrovert feels like such an honor because I've been following you for a while. I truly appreciate the way that you educate, you bring in science, and I think that's something that is unfortunately left out of this industry a lot. So thank you so much for being here. And do you want to take a minute to tell the listeners who you are?

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Yeah, thank you so much. I'm Natalie Anchiono. I've been an esthetician for six years, which I know is not a long time compared to others, but I have spent six years highly educating myself just because it's always been something that has interested me. Like science is my, it's what I love. Um and when it comes to skin, I love it even more. So I have done that. Um, and now I'm just taking that education and trying to educate other estheticians and helping people to feel more confident in the treatment room. Because yes, during school, we just don't get enough education over skin, which is crazy because it's literally what we do every day. Um so now I've just stepped into this space where I kind of want to give people the opportunity to learn what we should have been taught.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

I love that. I appreciate that more than you know because I guess it's a thing. It's not just for a while, I kind of thought some from Louisiana. So I kind of thought it was just like a lack in this area. But the more education and the more, well, more the more estheticians that reach out to me, they say the same thing. Like they don't have a good fundamental basis. You would die. I had an aesthetician when we were talking about just layers of the skin, had no clue what was on the top, the epidermis or the dermis. I was like, are we here? Like, what is happening? And she's a licensed esthetician. So what you're doing, I feel like is the Lord's work. So thank you. These masterclasses, you guys, if y'all have not attended one of Natalie's masterclasses, she's very science-based, but I will say it's digestible. I would probably, if I could give anybody any advice about her classes, it's not for a brand new just out of school ST, or I mean, maybe it could. I just feel like if you want to really learn from Natalie, you have to have a good base knowledge. Like if you don't know where the epidermis and the dermis is, probably brush up on that, then jump on Natalie's masterclass because she's got the science. And if you want to soak that in and just appreciate that, yeah, I would say maybe a little bit of a base would be good. Do you agree?

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Yeah, and I just want to say, like, if people don't know those things, I want to say, like, it's probably not their fault. I mean, like when I went through school, I remember literally not knowing, like, when people would talk about your scope, I was like, I don't, I don't know what that means. Like, I didn't know that. And I took it like I took the initiative to start looking into everything, um, even the laws in my state, because I was like, I actually don't know what I'm allowed to do and what I'm not allowed to do. I knew I couldn't do double exfoliation, and that was about it. Um, but I didn't know what the dermas held. I didn't know those things. I had uh gone through um anatomy and physiology when I was in college before I became an aesthetician. So I knew like the basics, but that had been years before. And so when I went back to studying it for my profession, I was like, yeah, wow, we never went over this school. Like, what the heck? So it's kind of crazy. And I don't blame, you know, aestheticians for not knowing, but there's also a point where it now becomes your responsibility. So if you didn't learn it in school, that's not your fault. But once you're out of school, you do need to do the education to educate yourself, to learn these different things.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

You just nailed it. And I think that sometimes sadly separates aestheticians like us that are super passionate about this industry because we want to know more. We are craving more. We, you know, we just want it so bad from the others that you can tell there's just no passion there. So I am very grateful that you're doing this. And if you are an aesthetician that just wants more, Natalie is the perfect person to learn from. So when we're done, I'll give her a platform she'll be able to share what her social media handle is, all that stuff, so you can follow her. But we have some serious stuff to talk about on this episode because there is a lot of hot button topics that are being talked about on social media right now. And I wanted to bring you in for this one specifically because not only are you a genius and you're so smart, but you have the results to back this. You don't just come out saying do this and do that. You have lived experience, you have results, and I think you can bring so much knowledge on this topic to our listeners. So, what I thought we would talk about is microneedling over acne, which is, as an aesthetician, I was always told was a no-no. So we'll we'll talk about that. But also bringing certain topicals into microneedling treatments post and what your take is on those. So let's just dive right in. So, for those that maybe are not familiar, can you tell us what is the reason for microneedling? What is our goal for patient and for provider?

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Well, microneedling itself is if you do it, let's say traditional microneedling. Microneedling is a controlled injury with controlled healing. So you're not causing an excess amount of inflammation in the skin if you do it correctly, right? Now, the goal is not just to make collagen, the goal is actually to change the skin behavior. And that's how I personally use it. So when we are doing that, when as the provider, your goal is to change the signaling in the skin and how the skin is behaving over time. And as the patient, the goal is again to change the signaling over the time. Essentially, you have the same goal because you both want to get some type of results. So we are creating this controlled wound healing response within the skin, and that is going to stimulate the communication between keratinocytes, fibroblasts, um, immune cells, growth factors, vascular signaling, and then even this extracellular matrix remodeling, which is going to help the structure of our skin. So when it's done correctly, then what we see on the other side of that is that the skin starts functioning more, if you can, normally again. I don't know if normal is an actual term relevant.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

Well, healthy, right? Healthy. Like you want it to go back to health. That's wild that you say that because people don't even talk about that when they talk about microneedling, like changing the behavior of the skin. This is all like maybe terminology that a lot of people are not used to hearing when they think about microneedling.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

Yeah, I I feel like microneedling is one, very oversimplified on the internet, and two, very underestimated. And three, people think of it as like, oh, that's for anti-aging. Yes. And I will say that 90% of the time I don't use microneedling for anti-aging. Is it a benefit? Yes. But most of the clients coming to me are not coming to me for microneedling for anti-aging. They're coming for acne, rosacea, melasma, any oily skin, large pores, like different things like that. Um, and so we just, yeah, we treat it with microneedling and definitely 100% my favorite treatment.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

Okay. So you said it. So we're gonna talk about it. You are known for getting really great results microneedling over acne, which honestly goes against what most providers are taught. So, can you walk us through your philosophy on microneedling over acne, kind of where it came from and where you're at now with it?

SPEAKER_00 9:16

Yeah. So after school, I started studying the skin because I just realized I remember clients asking me questions and I was like, I don't know enough. And I've always been like a very self-motivated person. So I was like, I need to start studying. So I did. And I was, you know, reading through the flora of the skin, and I was like, oh, well, C acne's literally lives on the skin. And even myself, I'm acne prone. I have been acne prone. And I was like, that's so strange. Like, if we all have C acne bacteria on our skin, why am I getting acne? And why is my sister not? Right. So then I started looking into dermatology books and I started reading like more into like more in-depth, I guess, um, definitions, if you will. And I think the biggest misconception about acne is people think that it is an infection and it is not an infection. It is not even classified as an infection. It's a multifactorial condition of the pylosbaceous unit. So essentially, what we see is the skin does not behave correctly after that. So as we know, C acnes already exists in the follicle. And then what happens is we have retention hyperkeratosis, where, you know, it creates this plug in the follicle and then the oxygen levels start to drop. Well, once that oxygen level drops, then the C acnes bacteria then starts to thrive. It starts breaking down the sebum, which then creates something called free fatty acids. Those free fatty acids are very irritating to the follicular wall. And so what we see from there is that the follicular wall gets irritated. Um, it's going to send out an immune response to the body. We're going to see neutrophils come to the area. So we're going to see some pus happening. Um, we're going to see the area get a little bit irritated and swollen, maybe inflamed, but it is an immune response. It is not considered an infection. It is actually considered a very like sterile environment within that plug because you're just, it's the C acnes bacteria is in there with like a lower oxygen environment and sebum. And that's what's happening. So it's actually considered a sterile environment when you look it up in a book. Um, and so yeah, as these oxygen levels drop, it just increases that inflammatory signaling in the follicle, and then we end up with acne. If that C acne bacteria exists in one follicle here where you have a breakout, it also exists over here where you don't have a breakout. And so you microneedling does not make you have acne over here. Because also, even if you just, let's say we have C acne bacteria on our fingers and I touch over here, that doesn't mean I'm gonna have acne tomorrow. I would have to have the other steps happen for me to get a breakout.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

That is wild because I would say that's got to be the most misunderstood part about this. Because we were told not to do it because the biggest concern was spreading that bacteria or worsening the inflammation. And that's not what's happening at all. That is absolutely crazy. So aside from that, I might be throwing you for a loop here. But do you think that is the most misunderstood part about this, about needling over acne is thinking you're spreading the bacteria?

SPEAKER_00 12:36

Yes, a hundred percent. Everybody, like, I mean, you have to, it's crazy the amount of comments I get or inboxes or anything a day. Like, and I I say this honestly and from my heart, I get comments every single day about acne, some even old posts, whatever people are uh commenting on them. And it's like the thing is that it's just misunderstood. And I have a friend right now who's in aesthetic school, and she has actually um taken classes with me. And she was like, Man, I just got out of this class and my teacher sat there and told us how we can't do extractions because we'll spread bacteria and how acne is an um an infection. And I was like, All right, don't worry. When you get out of school, I will help you. But yeah, I mean, people think that it makes inflammation, whereas they think that it makes that it makes the bacteria spread. But the the issue comes from a lack of understanding to what acne truly is and how acne truly behaves or comes to be in the skin.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

Okay, so with that knowledge, so you have that base knowledge. Obviously, maybe a lot of other aestheticians do not have that base knowledge because we just talked about that. Maybe they learned something completely different. I was, I just did an episode and we I talked about this with another aesthetician. I think when you learn something, even if it's from you in a masterclass or if it's sitting in an aesthetics room at your school, I think the most important part about this is to understand that yeah, science is science, but as this industry continues to evolve, we learn more. And you said it perfectly, and you're real. Like my lived experience matters. I am a professional. I have worked my way here, I have learned my way here, and what I'm learning is it's okay for me to move forward with that knowledge and with that education. So I guess with that said, do you think microneedling over acne is more about technique protocol or provider understanding, or is it all three?

SPEAKER_00 14:51

I mean, I think that the first thing that matters is provider understanding. And I think that understanding the skin is so important because, yes, like technique 100% matters as well. And I will stand on that hill because I mean, some people are way too aggressive with microneedling in general. That's gonna cause excess trauma, that's gonna cause excess downtime. We're then not creating what we call that controlled inflammation that we're looking for with the treatment. So understanding what controls the whole entire treatment itself is very important. But I think what's most important is to read the skin. If you don't know how to read skin, if you don't know what you're looking at, if you don't know what type of erythema you're looking at or what the skin barrier can handle, then I think that that's where we kind of go into we cross a line to where then at that point it could become unsafe, which is why I teach master classes, because it's not as simple as somebody, and as we know, man, the thing that gets me so much is people doing microneedling at home. I'm like you you you know zero things about the skin and you're taking a medical device. Microneedling is considered a medical treatment. So, okay, estheticians that aren't medical estheticians, as the term goes, um, can work, right? But they can only stay in a certain zone, epidermis. But truly, if somebody is at home using a microneedling device going 1.5 on their face, I'm like, ugh, because that can even go wrong with a trained professional. And I'm just like, okay. So, but what I'm getting at is honestly, you can have two different providers. They could use the same device. Um, they could they could use the same needle depth, the same protocol, if you will, and they could get completely different outcomes because one might understand what they're looking at, and one might not understand what they're looking at. And if you don't know how to read the skin in real time, you're gonna have a really hard time interpreting what's happening during, what's happening after, etc. So that's where I just think in general, and I say this with love, but I think skin is not taken seriously enough.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Hello.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

Now we're industry. I had one esthetician say, like, she's always talking about things that don't matter. And I was like, interesting. Really? I feel like I feel like it matters. Wow. I could be wrong, but you know, that's fine. Um, and I'm not here to like say anything bad, but it's like the mentality is like, oh, she's talking about something that that doesn't matter. And it's like, no, girlfriend, like I I am talking about this because it does matter, and that's the problem. Literally what we do. Yeah. So it's not to like talk bad about anybody, but it's like, I wish people would take it more seriously to the point where it's like, hey, no, it does matter to understand an acid. It does matter to understand your microneedling device and what depth is safe and what depth is not, etc. All of those things matter. And that is how we get different results as providers. One understands, one might not, and that's just going to create different outcomes.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

That's right. You you got it. You nailed that right on the head. I think there's not enough people craving more, and that's the problem. They're taking what they've learned from just uh a six months in school, and then that's it, and they go with it. There has to be some knowledge of barrier health. There needs to be some knowledge of inflammation. There needs you have to have something in order to make sure that someone's even a candidate for a treatment. So I guess that's my next question for you. And obviously, it's as an aesthetician, it's your responsibility to go for, you know, ask more questions if you if you're not comfortable and learn. But just give us a little bit of information. Like, is there a person who is absolutely not a candidate? And if they are, do you microneedle over all types of acne, all grades of acne? And is there a certain grade where you're like, no, pause?

SPEAKER_00 19:10

So here's the thing. First and foremost, I am gonna look at how comfortable my my client is because I'm not so gung-ho about microneedling over acne that I'm like, no matter what your skin looks like, I'm gonna microneedle you. There are plenty of clients that I have started off with chemical peels because even cleansing their face is sensitive to them. I'm not gonna torture my client on my spa, lay down. I'm gonna microne your face. Like, I'm not gonna do that. So obviously, I'm gonna be like, okay, you know what? You are not gonna tolerate microneedling well right now. Your skin is very sensitive, your barrier is compromised, you have a very high inflammatory load. Let's start you off with something gentler. Maybe I use a salicillic peel or something to bring down the inflammation in the skin. And then later I will start that microneedling um, I guess, approach because here's the thing it's like when I'm microneedling over somebody, it's truly not about clearing the acne. And that's what I clear acne with microneedling, but I don't do it just to clear the acne. I do it to change the behavior of the skin. So if I go in and I can calm down that inflammation and I can get the client comfortable to where I can go in and microneedle, what in my head I'm thinking is that's gonna help the future appointments with this client. This is gonna help the future health of this client. And I can help control that acne much easier than if I'm just doing, I would say, traditional treatments. Not that I don't use traditional treatments as well. I do. So not everybody can afford microneedling. Some people do just skincare with me, and that's okay. But if I have the option, I am gonna go for the microneedling just because I know that it helps reprogram the skin. Now, there is another thing that comes up all the time, and they're like, Well, what if they have an infection and you microneedle over it? And I'm just gonna say, sister, if somebody has an infection on their face, you shouldn't be touching their face anyways. Yes, if somebody lays down and they have an infection, and this is where too, people get confused. So they think that if somebody has acne, their face is, let's say, warm to the touch, let's say it's red, it's inflamed, they think infection. That's not true. What you can more so see as an infection is let's say they have acne everywhere, and over here they have a large lesion. This lesion is hot, it's mobile, um, it popped up out of nowhere. It's not something that it's been reoccurring in that area, it's not something that they've had for a long time, it's something that has like shown up recently, if you will. That is a sign of an infection. Infection is not having inflammation and swelling and pus. Yes, those can be signs, but it's not the only signs of an infection. You have to look at how long has this been here? What's the behavior of this lesion? And that's how we get there. But again, if anybody suspects infection, please don't even cleanse that person's face because what are what are we doing? That's not that that is not a part of our scope. So send them to somebody else. But that is where this understanding of skin comes in. If you don't know how to detect an infection in somebody's skin, we got to go back to square one. Because no matter what type of vesthetician you are, even if you're doing basic facials in your room all day, you should still know how to identify an infection and turn a client away because you don't want to be touching that or interfering with that. So that's but outside of that, I do microneedle over pretty much everything cysts, nodules, um, fungal acne, pustules, papilles, all closed comodones. And I have had a lot of success, but again, I am reading the skin. I am looking at the skin before I make the decision to microneedle over their skin. And again, I have had uh like amazing success with this. People that had been struggling for years with acne. I had one lady that had terrible, terrible um like hormonal acne. And she'd been going to a dermatologist for two years. They'd put her on all types of medicine, nothing would clear it. And I went in, I microneedled her three sessions, and to this day, she still gets a few breakouts, and I only see her now like once every three months. She's a new mom and stuff, but she like does not have the problems that she had when she came to me.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

That's amazing. I love that. Changing somebody's skin can literally change their life. So that's why we we do what we do, and which is another reason why I appreciate you and your education so much because it's it's just it's needed. And I wanted to talk about something. Um, it just popped into my head. But, you know, you talk about a lot changing the behaviors, your skin is stuck in a loop. Um you relate that to your in-office treatments and what you select for your, you know, your in-office treatments. It's kind of very similar to like what I'm out here having to like relentlessly preach with the skincare brand that um that I work for, because we take an aggressive approach. So a lot of times people will say, oh no, you can't put rosacea skin on that product, or you can't put um sensitive skin on that as if sensitive was an actual real thing. So it's the same thing, it's the same kind of concept that like we have. It's when the skin is stuck in chronic inflammation and it's stuck in that loop, in that loop. Sometimes, I'm not gonna say the only way, but sometimes the only way to get them out of the loop is to reintroduce acute inflammation, to fight that fire with fire. And so I think your the way you're verbalizing a lot of this is kind of similar sometimes. I mean, acne is a form of chronic inflammation, rosacea, a form of chronic inflammation. It's like sometimes to retrain to get them out of that loop, we're just introducing that little bit of controlled injury, that acute inflammation to really get the skin to behave better, to get it healthy again. So I love this content. This is so good, and more providers, specifically aestheticians, need to understand that if they want to see true improvement and true understanding with their client's skin. So thank you for that. Okay, moving from the microneedling over acne, let's talk about another hot button topic, and that is combining topicals with microneedling. Because let me just tell you, I know you saw it because I think every esthetician saw it, but this one girl, esthetician, dragging other estheticians through the mud that are using anything with microneedling. Like you cannot apply anything 48 hours. And if your esthetician is doing that, they don't know what they're doing, you should run, red flag. I'm like, gosh. So I wanted to get your take on this because certainly there are things that we should not be incorporating with microneedling. There is a risk of granuloma, there's things that are real risks, but to blanket, do not do anything. I think that's absolutely ridiculous. So I want to know, obviously, I have my own opinion because sharing it, but I want to know what your opinion is on applying topicals post-microneedling.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

So I do, okay. Well, first of all, 48 hours is very extreme because the microchannels completely get back to their normal state um within 24 hours. And we've seen that on histology reports. Um, but here's the thing. So I do apply things like I have worked with um self-neutralizing chemical peels. I do that very often. I am particular about which peels I use. Um, when it comes to other things, I am very cautious because of the fact that I have looked into granulomas a lot just because I had to educate myself over this, um, especially working very close with skin pen. Because before I used to put on things, that's how I was traditionally trained. When I did my microneedling training, they actually had us put like this thick balm. Like, what was that balm that people used to use? It was called like cow balm or something. I don't know. It was like something so thick. And they would have us like put that on people's faces. And I look back at that and I like cringe and I'm like, oh my God. And they used to have us like also microneedle like in this moisturizer into the skin. And I'm like, oh my God, I'm so happy I didn't end up with granulomas. Now, um, here's the thing. So my take on this is I do what I do. I personally, outside of a few things, so things that I will apply topically are PRP because it's autologous, which means it comes from your body and your body will accept it. I do apply Botox because we do know that Botox can be um injected intradermally. We know that it's fine and it's not going to cause a granuloma. I do apply self-neutralizing chemical peels. Again, I am selective of the ones I apply. Now, outside of that, the reason why I'm cautious is because there's like a list of things that have caused granulomas. And I do try to explain this in a way where a doctor actually explained it to me this way. And and he said, okay, the thing is, is when we hear about a granuloma, the granuloma has to be like reported into like a medical paper. Okay. So they're gonna verify, yes, this is a granuloma, and it goes through this whole like process. So most of the time, a provider is not gonna go through that process to report a granuloma. And in turn, the uh patient also has to agree to a punch biopsy. So if the client does not want a punch biopsy and they don't want to get their face reported to a medical journal and take it like given off to a lab, it's not gonna happen. So a lot of granulomas live just in people's charts. And I've actually known people, I know one specific girl who had a vitamin C applied after her microneedling. She ended up with granulomas, and it was never published in a journal, but that's what she was um determined to have. They started giving her shots. She had to go on an oral medication, and you know, she like none of us ever heard about that, right? So the doctor told me there are a lot of granuloma cases, but due to HIPAA, we're never gonna know about those cases unless that patient gives, you know, consent to be a part of a medical journal and all this stuff. So, okay. Well, and on the other hand, I have a lot of friends who are aestheticians. I I have one friend that I can think of specifically, and she uses PDRN. I personally don't, but my friend gets amazing results. And every time she posts a picture of her results, I'm gonna clap for her because that's not my business. And whatever she does, that like I always say, like experience is relevant, right? So that's her experience. She has great results from it and she likes to use it and it doesn't affect me. So I'm like, all right, girl, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:03

I don't care.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

I really don't care. I have my stance, but I'm not standing in a place where I'm gonna talk down about other people's decisions. I just am not. But when people ask me, hey, why do you not do this? I'm gonna explain why. So I don't apply things like moisturizer, SPF. I don't apply exosomes like foreign exosomes. I do apply PRP, I don't apply growth factors, hyaluronic acid, anything like that, um, because I am worried about granulomas. When you have something that is not supposed to be injected or put into the dermis, the dermis does not shed like the epidermis does. So the way that the dermis will clear that out is a macrophage will come in, it will take that and it will help clear it out. A macrophage clears up debris. If that macrophage cannot clear that out, what the body does is it encapsulates it and it will encapsulate it to protect you. So that is where we then get a granuloma. And sometimes granulomas stay small, sometimes they continue to grow as the irritation and the immune signaling keep uh this continuous signaling going. So I made the decision a long time ago. I just I'm not willing to risk it, and I am like too scared of seeing like too many things. But again, just because I have that stance doesn't mean that I think somebody else can't do differently than me. And I also don't care to talk down to any aesthetician that does differently than me. I truly, and I don't mean it in a way like I don't care. I'm just saying, like, I don't care. Like it's it's like it doesn't affect my business. So I'm gonna let you do what you want to do, and I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do, and we can live harmoniously like that. Like there's no, there's no issue. At the end of the day, we all do things differently, and I am conscious of that. Like, I'm not gonna be like, it's my way or the highway. Otherwise, I would be that's a I would be a ridiculous estimation if I said that.

SPEAKER_01 33:07

So I appreciate you saying that because I think that's that's real. That is absolutely real. As providers that are out there still, I mean, I'm not, I don't treat patients anymore, but speaking as a provider, I think providers that are still out there treating patients, especially providers like you and others that are taking their education level and continuing to learn and continuing to grow, they get to decide how they want to treat. And I I think it's wild that anyone would go and discredit what they are choosing for their standard of care. Now, look, I do also understand certain providers that feel it their responsibility to go on and say, like, this is um, let me give an example. Like, if they put something out to show patient, like to for patient education that they say maybe this is improper technique, or if they don't have this sterile environment, you know, red flag, okay, fine. Like those kinds of things I understand. But like to be an aesthetician and go on and say you shouldn't be dermoplaning the skin, be so for real. Like this, okay. These these are the things. If you are, if you're and I hope there's a new aesthetician that is listening and doesn't, you know, I hope they take this advice. If you choose to get into that messy side of social media, pretty please, don't discredit a qualified provider for their standard of care. If it is a product, if it is a service, if it is a treatment that is clinically backed by science, don't do it. They're choosing that skincare because they align with it, they're choosing that treatment because they align with it. And they are just as qualified to be here as you are. So I love that you said that. I love that you said in my experience and my education and in my knowledge, this is how I am gonna treat. She, who also has her own level of education, is choosing to treat this way. I wish her well. I think her results are great. I went through the same exact thing with um the skincare. You know, I see a lot of people that like they'll make videos like, oh, this skincare will wreck your burial, ruin it, and you know, all these things. But they're providers who have never used it before, they've never tried it, they don't understand the science, they've not been educated on it. But I had someone that I scrolled across on my FYP, and I was like, I could kiss this girl on the mouth. First of all, she had nothing great to say about the skincare that I represent. Actually, she said, look, I'm an aesthetician. I don't work in a medical practice, so I can't carry it, but I've been hearing mixed reviews online, so I wanted to try it. So I went to an aesthetician at a plastic surgeon in town. They put me on it. I took her advice, and three weeks in, I was raw and red, and all the esthetician kept saying was just power through. And this is what she said. She said, as an esthetician, I don't align with that. So I stopped. And then I went and got back on the skincare that I know and I love and I'm fine now, but it's a no for me. While I understand that other people get really great results from it, it's got great clinicals, it's got it's backed by science, it's just gonna be a no for me. And even though she didn't say anything complimentary of it, I respected every bit of that video because she it was it, it came from an honest place. She said her her experience, which is valid as an aesthetician, and why it was a no. It wasn't just that if you use this or if you're a provider that uses this, you're uh reckless and you're this or that. And I and I feel like that's what's happening with the microneedling, that's what's happening with the chemical peels, that's what's happening with all these things because it's just something that they're not educated on. They've not experienced it or tried it themselves, and they're just trying to stay relevant on social media. It's just yuck.

SPEAKER_00 36:59

Well, and even going back to skincare, I can't stand like when people are like, oh my God, I hate this product. I broke out it from it.

SPEAKER_01 37:07

Um, girl, not every single product is gonna be for you, sis.

SPEAKER_00 37:12

Yeah, I mean, I like I'll give you a really I'll give you an example. I have never talked badly about this product in my life, nor will I ever, but I will give you an example. I used a very popular brand of hyaluronic acid on my skin. I'll I'll just say it. I'm not whatever, I'm not saying anything bad. Epicutics, okay? I used lipid. I was so excited. I actually bought two bottles and I was like, yes, yes, yes, that's crazy, girl. I have seen amazing results from Epicutus online. I was stoked. Don't know why, but I broke out like crazy. I went through a whole entire bottle and the half of the next bottle, and I was like, this is the only thing I've changed. Let me try to come off of it. Let me see. Came off of it, my breakout stopped. Does that mean I'm gonna turn to all my clients or anybody and be like, that product sucks? No, because the before and afters exist of clients using it. So am I gonna say that it sucks? No, but it just doesn't work for me. So that's fine. Like, I don't, it doesn't have to work for me. It can work for somebody else. And I've seen it work for other people. So I'm not just gonna discredit it because on my face, it made me break out. And that's where I think people get caught up. They can't see beyond their own experience or you know what I mean? Like a lot of people will say, Oh, well, I microneedled one client that had acne and they broke out like crazy. That's correct because you only microneedled them once, and purging is a real thing. And purging happens even after you get a new face wash, my friend. Like even after you get a facial or a grammar plane or anything you can purge. And so that lack of understanding to understand that it's not black and white. You're not gonna use this, and it's not gonna always be this is not always going to be the result. It's not always going to be, I did this and now my skin is clear. It's a journey. That's why we always say that it's always a journey for everybody. Skin care, aesthetics, microneedling, acne, rosacea, all of it is a journey because it will never be the same road for everybody.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

That's right. You know, speaking of the microneedling thing, so I've been an aesthetician for a little over 20 years now. And when I first started working in a med spa, which was right out of school, um, we we offered microneedling. And I remember reading this book and taking this class from a very popular doctor, the one who touted that he started microneedling, which I really don't even know the backstory, whether it was him or not. But he only believes, which I can't say believes because maybe his stance has changed. This was uh a long time ago, but we should only use sterile saline for microneedling. And so for the first maybe two or three years, that's all that I did. I just used saline and that was my glide. We would apply nothing post. I would instruct them, you know, go straight home, no makeup, no um skincare for 48 hours. Like it was, I did a very strict thing. And then I had taken a class from, and it was a brand-sponsored thing. So it was like a class from one of the skincare brands that I was offering at the time. And they were like, No, you can apply all of these things. And I remember going, What? Like this vitamin C serum? I could put that in the skin. Oh my gosh. And I swear to you, they had, and it I'm not gonna say the name of the company because I don't even know if they still have them, but they had these little tiny vials of um concentrated topical, whatever it was, that you could apply immediately post-needling. They had a retinol serum, they have a vitamin C serum, there was a hyaluronic acid one. I think there was another one, but we didn't carry it where we were. But I was, I remember just being so freaking excited to have something that would like boost my microneedling. And I was so pumped. And I think I probably did it for maybe like several months, and I was just retinol juice in everybody's face and all this stuff immediately post. And I remember someone had gotten a granuloma and I know exactly what it was from. It was from that vitamin C serum. And when I reached back out to the company, I talked to the rep and she was like, No, no, that's that's not from this. That's gotta be from something else. Maybe you went a little too deep. Maybe the body was like responding to the injury of the microneedling. And then I started just Googling. A simple Google Sam would have like saved you that. So I immediately Googled and I'm reading all of these like granuloma risk with vitamin C and ascorbic acid. And I was like, oh my God, Samantha, you could have like just researched a hot second before just taking that like brand training. And that's what I did. And that's how I learned very early on. And look, still to this day, I'm sure that there's people that are doing it and maybe getting really great results. I but it's like you said, I I think getting the knowledge, understanding what you're doing to the skin, and then you can ultimately make decisions how you want to treat, especially it's patient-specific. Maybe what's gonna work for this patient is not also gonna work for this patient. So learning to really understand the skin to make those choices.

SPEAKER_00 42:30

Well, like touching on granulomas, here's the thing so, first of all, it can be accumulatory. So somebody can say, Well, uh actually, I have a very good example. I had a I had an aesthetician that reached out to me and she had used exosomes, and her client actually ended up in the emergency room. It was crazy. Yeah, this girl's face, I I kid you not, probably swelled like three times its size. Like it was it was very scary. She's in pictures. But she was like, No, this is like my fifth time microneedling her. And I did everything the same. And I was like, okay, well, here's the thing. So every time that you microneedle something into the skin, you are sending out this signal to the body, and the body then sends out like these little defense signals. So now it's on high alert. So even if it's a month apart, whatever, your body has already recognized, okay, this is an intruder. Every time that you add to that, you are getting closer and closer and closer to having a reaction. Some people might never have a reaction because maybe their immune system is different than somebody else's, but you never know who that person is going to be. So as you continue to microneedle the same ingredient into a person, even if you've done it 10 times, 20 times, that doesn't mean that you're never going to get a granuloma using that exact serum on that person. Because every time Time you are positioning the body to defend itself more and more. And again, granuloma is the result of the body defending itself. Now, when it comes to products, um people say, Well, do you want to go in? Well, I'll I'll I'll ask you, Sam, do you want to go into like the specific products? Because okay, let's talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 44:21

So I would love to.

SPEAKER_00 44:23

Hyaluronic acid, right? People think that hyaluronic acid, they're like, oh my God, it's hydrating. I'm gonna hydrate the skin. This is gonna be awesome. And my clients are gonna get such good results. Well, first of all, people assume that hyaluronic acid is always calming and it is not, especially when we're looking at multimolecular hyaluronic acid. So that's actually a very big misconception. If you apply a multimolecular hyaluronic acid to somebody with rosacea, they're gonna tell you their face is on fire. Why? Because that smaller weighted hyaluronic acid goes deep into the skin. It's gonna penetrate quickly, penetrate fastly, fast, um, and it's gonna get in there. And essentially, that person is going to have a stimulating reaction to that product. So, not all hydrating ingredients are just safe because they're hydrating. That's not what it does, especially when that product is meant to go on the outside of our skin. So it can actually be, again, very stimulating, especially if that person happens to have any issue with um reactive skin. Okay. Now, lower molecular weight. Well, oh, sorry, I said higher molecular weight, lower molecular weight can actually penetrate deeper, is what I meant to say. So um you have a lower molecular weight, so it's smaller, it can penetrate quickly. And then higher molecular weight is going to penetrate slower. But then you add in preservatives to this hyaluronic acid. So now you might have fragrance, um, you might have enhancers, peptides, acids, all of these things. Truly, and let's say, um, and I'm not, I'm again, I'm not talking bad about this, but let's just take lipid serum for an example. Lipid serum is a hyaluronic acid, but lipid serum still has eight ingredients in it, I believe. So eight ingredients means that it's not a hundred percent hyaluronic acid at that point. So um, that is going to react differently in the skin. And hydration and inflammation are not actually like as opposite as we think, because a product can actually increase water content in the skin while simultaneously increasing skin reactivity in the skin. So that that's like a very big misconception. People say, Well, I used hyaluronic acid, correct. And their granulomas reported due to hyaluronic acid. So I just want to like let me.

SPEAKER_01 46:51

So wait, pause. Okay, you are blowing my freaking mind right now. Okay, two things I want to ask about that because okay, you're literally validating something that happened to me, and I could not now look. Yes, I do work with a skincare brand, but I like to try what's out there. Number one, I like to know what my competition is, but two, I always give credit where credit's due. If there's something that's just gold, I'll tell you like that was really freaking good. I loved it. And there was a hyaluronic acid product that I tried and I couldn't understand. I was lit up. I have horrible rosacea. I was lit up and I could not get it under control. And I stayed on it because I was like, everybody else is getting really good results from this product. They also said that it could pair well with the products that I was using, like it was a good complimentary ad to it. So I was like, all right, well, let me just roll with it. Like you said, I'm like it's hydrating. So it's also like not gonna clog my pores. So it's probably a great option for me. Could not. The literal second I stopped using it, I felt like my skin started to calm down. So that just validated that experience. And two, if you're not using hyaluronic acid, what glider you like? What do you what do you what do we do?

SPEAKER_00 48:06

Well, I personally use um the HD Lift, which is the water-based gel from Skin Pen. It's been um FDA approved. Um, or the other option is sterile saline because it's isotonic, so the body does accept it. Um, because it, I mean, we can get saline intravenous intravenously, right? So I do, I do those are the two ways, or I use PRP as well. Okay. But um, out of curiosity, was it hydrinity that you used? Yes, yes, but listen, I like hygenity. I don't know. Oh, me too. I love hygienity.

SPEAKER_01 48:40

Yes, I do. I really love um, I loved it. And I there's a a lot about the company itself. I think Keith, the CEO, is a really cool guy. I I love it. I don't have anything negative to say. I was just like, why is my skin not doing what everybody else's is doing? I couldn't understand it.

SPEAKER_00 48:58

I work with a lot of rosacea clients and I cannot put them on the hydrantity HA because it's so stimulating for them. And they're like, I don't get it. Like, I'm putting on hyaluronic acid and my face is on fire.

SPEAKER_01 49:11

Yes, that's how I felt. And I could not, I was like, is I don't think at first I started thinking, do I need to stop using my retinol? Like give my retinol a break because I thought maybe it was inflammation from the retinol that was causing it to feel sensitized. But then I was like, no, because my daily power defense, which is just like an antioxidant, like a daily antioxidant, that doesn't burn. So if that's not burning, then why girl? You just totally like blew my mind just now with this. I'm like, I need to like learn more. Like now I'm like, oh god, I need more. So wow. Okay, y'all. See now I'm learning something and you're kind of like changing my mind about some things. So, okay, tell me what your stance is on growth factors. What do you feel about? Now you mentioned the exosomes, so I I get it. And I also think we still have a lot to learn about exosomes, to be honest. I feel like we're just not really in a place where everybody should feel so like super comfy with exosomes, but to each his own. What about growth factors? Now that's something that's been around for a long time. So where are you on that?

SPEAKER_00 50:16

So I think that growth factors are promising. I feel like there needs to be more science, which is what people say about microneedling over acne. So I'm a person that hasn't experimented with lab-made exosomes because I am worried about um granulomas. However, I think that exosomes and growth factors have maybe a future. I just think that, again, I will say there have been granulomas reported due to growth factors due to exosomes. I know that for a fact. So there have been granulomas reported. But in that sense, it's like the reason why people say to microneedle them, and this is what a lot of estheticians have not like realized, is there's something called the Dalton 500 rule. So when something is going to passively go into the skin barrier, penetrate it, it needs to be below 500 Daltons. An exosome sits around 1,500,000 Daltons. Very large. Okay. If it's fragmented, it no longer has the same benefit. So a reason the reason why a lot of these companies are like microneedle it into the skin is because without it, you can't really get it to passively get into the dermis. So you have to like open up the skin for that large molecule to get in. Now, I'm I've seen great results from megosomes. Again, like my friend uses PDRN, and I'm not like, I'm not personally going to use them, but I feel like there's a future with them. I do feel that. I just think that, you know, maybe like they I don't know if they'll ever be FDA approved. I know that they're like FDA cleared, but they're not FDA approved, which is different. And they're not FDA approved or cleared for injection, which goes into a gray area because technically, if you are micronatling it into the skin, like as a glide, it then becomes an injection. And if you apply it topically, you're still getting it into the skin. So, anyways, that's a that's a whole other can of worms. But I do think there's a future with them. I'm not like I'm not writing them off. I am saying I personally don't use them right now. Now, I do carry, like I have factor five, which is, you know, a chemical peel followed by exosomes. And I like that. Um, but it's not like I'm against them. I just personally am not going to use them because you still run the same risk. What if one of those signaling cells, because that's what exosomes and growth factors are, they're signaling cells. What if that signaling cell doesn't cooperate with your body? And then it sends off signals, and then you end up with a granuloma. That's where you're getting a little bit dicey. Like, is this gonna work for you? Is it not? Is it gonna send out the right signal? Is your body going to accept that signal? Or is the body gonna see that signal, interpret that signal as a threat, and send in the troops, and then we end up with a granuloma? So that's where I'm like, meh, I think there might be a future, but I'm not I'm not on board to use them yet, personally.

SPEAKER_01 53:23

Yeah, no, I I I like I like your stance on that. I like that you're not sh shutting anything out, but you're leaving it open for more science and more information or even more developments with that specific technology, you know, as being a possibility. Um, what about peptides?

SPEAKER_00 53:42

So peptides do tend to be generally a little bit less reactive than other ingredients. Um, but again, I personally don't apply them just because I don't apply anything post-microneedling besides what I already mentioned. But just because an ingredient it can be beneficial for the skin doesn't mean that we should necessarily put it into the skin. Same with like hyaluronic acid, right? So just because things are great on the outside of our skin and peptide also is a signaling molecule. So it's gonna be signaling. Again, it's a little bit less reactive than other things on the market. But again, if I'm putting it on the outside, I don't want to take that same thing that I typically apply to the outside and put it into the skin. You are then creating a whole entire different environment for that molecule to interact and react with the skin. So again, my approach is just really controlled and minimal post-microneedling. I only use very minimal ingredients. I there might be something, you know, that estheticians like to use that's peptide-based, but again, personally, I just I'm it's a signaling cell.

SPEAKER_01 54:54

So this is just a question, a personal question for you though. Like, what if a company has a product that is safety tested prior to applying, not gliding it, but applying it topically after? Does that change your opinion on it? Not saying that you would do it, but like, does that make you feel a little bit more confident in trying it? Or are you still kind of like, eh, nope?

SPEAKER_00 55:22

Nope. Um, because for example, I work with a brand and they were like, yeah, we tested our vitamin C and post-microneedling, it's a hundred percent safe. So, first of all, what depths were you using? Second of all, um, how many people were studied? Because granulomas, the chance is one in one thousand. And so, you know, who knows what?

SPEAKER_01 55:44

Did you think did you do a thousand?

SPEAKER_00 55:46

Yeah, and and who knows? Like, you know, you could have had people that just didn't react to that. But like, I am just not going to take that to heart because, like, again, I've spent time talking with these tissue doctors from Skin Pen. I've spent time talking with in general, the team from Skin Pen. I've done a lot of research on my own. And what it comes down to is I don't want to experiment a lot with people's skin. So even high, even hydrinity, they have like a little thing that they use as glide, and I don't use that as glide. Like I'm not gonna be like, oh, I work with hydrinity, so yeah, let me use that. Even though they say they've tested it, it does not change my mind because I still know what reaction the body can have, and it's not based off of no, this product we tried it and it it's safe. It's not about that, it's about when or who is going to react to this. And so that's where I'm just like, I'm scared.

SPEAKER_01 56:46

So I love this. I love that I'm like learning all new things today. Okay, so just a couple more questions and then I'll let you go. Um, so for providers that are listening, okay, what advice would you give them if they are new to this industry and want to learn more? What would you say is something that they should look for when it comes to educating themselves moving forward with these types of treatments?

SPEAKER_00 57:18

One is uh seek education. I I feel like a lot of people think they can watch a 10-second video on Instagram and copy the technique and have it down, and that's just not how it is. Like I explained, you really need to understand the physiology of the skin. So seek out that education. Um, we don't want to treat acne without understanding acne first. So if you don't truly understand how acne behaves in the skin, don't treat acne with microneedling. I need you to have a good foundational understanding of what acne truly is, how it truly behaves, what the flora of the skin is. That is important if you're going to be treating acne with microneedling. Um, also understand inflammation. People think that inflammation is bad. They hear inflammation, they think it's bad. It's not. But you also need to understand how to use it, how to control it, and read it. So inflammation is very important. A lot of people think when I microneedle it, I just need to see blood all over their face. And that couldn't be further from the truth. Um, that is that can cause excess trauma, that can cause excess downtime, all these things. Because there is not a one and done type of clinical endpoint, which is something that they kind of teach as an umbrella because it's like easier to teach that way. But if you say every every client needs to bleed on my table, what if that person has a delayed response? You're just gonna keep going at their skin? How many passes are you gonna do? 15? Like you cannot do that. And so you have to realize that every single person is going to respond differently. So, in that case, you have to understand what your limits are going to be when treating a client. Um, understand wound healing. And personally, I work with the physiology of the body, which is another reason why I don't add all these extra things to my, you know, um treatment, because I'm working with the physiology of the body. The body is very intelligent. If you know how to guide the body, the body will give you amazing results without having to add on five products after microneedling to get those results. And I would say I'm the proof, like I'm, you know, the proof in the pudding because I don't. And people always say, Well, can I do this? Can I do that? And I'm like, look, if you're in my class, you can do whatever you want. And I always say that you can do whatever you want, but you're here because you like my results. And this is how I get my results. I work with the body. And that's just that's just what it is. And yeah, just make sure that your technique is safe and that you're adapting it to every face that you're working on. And two, that you understand anatomy because when people don't understand, for example, I'll give you a quick example. Um, in the mentalis and the frontalis, the skin here is actually pulled tighter. So when you are at the lowest level of microneedling, which is 0.25, you are actually into the papillary dermis at the very lowest setting. People think at 0.25, I'm safe. I can put whatever topical I want on the skin because I'm only in the epidermis, the epidermishs, it's going to get rid of anything. And that is not true. Um, there are granulomas reported at 0.25, especially in the mentalis area, because you're deeper than you think you are. And now we're putting on a topical. So understanding anatomy and physiology of the skin is very important. And if you don't think it's important, then I think something should be reevaluated. Because if you are in this career to help people with their skin, then like in the most respectful way, you have to understand skin. You have to. And I mean that respectfully. I'm not, I and I'm saying that I had to learn skin. It's not like I woke up one day and knew everything I knew. I put in the effort to research it and I'm very passionate about learning. I still learn every single day. I'm always looking into stuff. I don't know everything by any means. Like, probably doctors, like tissue doctors look at me and they're like, this girl doesn't know nothing. You know, this girl doesn't know nothing. Um, and so, like, you know, but like I do put in the effort. And so what I would say to any aesthetician, whether new or in the industry for a while, the learning never stops. And if you think you know enough, you don't. And also if you don't know the skin really inside and out, then again, we have to put in more effort into learning because I don't even know the skin inside and out. I try really hard. I study all the time, but there's still things that I'm learning all the time. So it just goes to say we all have something to learn. And so you're never, you're never done learning, I guess. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:03

There was one more question that I forgot to ask you earlier, and I want to make sure I address this, especially with people having access to like buying pen, like microneedling pens on Amazon. But does the device matter? And is it important that aestheticians, if they are new to this, are investing in a certain quality of a device?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:26

Yes. So I actually saw this TikTok, and it was like the girl was like, they're all the same, and they're absolutely not the same. Um, and I don't say that because I work with skin pen. I had two different devices before I had skin pen, and I can tell you 100% skin pen is completely different than the devices I had prior to that. So, um, okay, needle quality matters. If your needle costs you one dollar, you're disposable. The they've done like um these things where they magnify them, right? And a lot of these cheaper needles, they have like jagged edges, they bend very easily. Like needle quality does matter because that is going to decide if you're making micro injuries or micro tears. Micro tears are not going to be productive for your results, and you are going to cause more scar tissue in the skin. Micro injury is going to cause a controlled injury that the skin can bounce back from, create controlled collagen, and get you good results. Um, motor consistency matters. Is your motor like doing like all those things matter? Um, depth depth accuracy matters as well. Because a lot of these um microneedling devices are spring-loaded, which is the norm. And what happens if you have a spring-loaded microneedling device and it goes into acne scarring, which is thick fibrous tissue? It does there, it does not actually penetrate, it can actually bounce off. So because it's spring-loaded, it only has to hit something to bounce it back. And so if it's going through something that's thick or hard to break up, it does bounce back. Now, again, I'm not saying you can't get results with these other devices. Again, I had other devices. Literally, the device I was given to in school, I think they got it from Timu. I'm not sure, but it was like like it, I felt embarrassed. I I traded it into skin pen for like a credit when I got my skin pen, and I literally felt embarrassed.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:31

I was like, here, you oh no, that's so funny. They probably did. You know, they try to keep those kit costs down, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:39

It was embarrassing. Um, and so yeah, and then again, tissue integrity is gonna play a part in this. Like, is it keeping the integrity of the tissue? Because with skin pen, your epidermis actually stays intact, the skin barrier stays intact. Yes, we're creating micro injuries, but it is considered to be intact still. That's why we have such a short downtime as well with microneedling. And to say the least, if you're getting just a microneedling treatment done and your downtime is like five days, I'm gonna need you to review your technique and all the things. Like this is not this is not normal. It should be 24 hours, the skin is back to normal. Now, they still do suggest going back on actives after 72 hours, but technically your barrier is back intact in 24 hours if the treatment is controlled. Um, and then also, like, I don't know if you have heard, like, where there's some machines that they don't have, and I forget the name right at this moment, where essentially it keeps the blood from going back into the machine.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:48

And there was like a med spa that they like contracted a disease. It was from one patient to another because they had this type of device that was a less expensive device. It didn't have this safety on it. And so that blood actually would go into the machine. And even though they changed the tips, the blood was still able to circulate and it got injected into the next patient. And then that patient ended up with a disease. And it was like a whole big thing. And even though technically they're being sterile, they're not, they're not, because the machine itself does not withhold that I guess um standard.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:31

Wow. So that's that's terrifying. That is absolutely terrifying. So yes, the device matters, please. For the love of God, the device matters.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:41

We all set we all have to start somewhere, and I totally get that. But when you can do better, do better.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:47

And that's well, and let's let's let's be real. Patient safety is should be number one always. And these patients come into your practice and they're not spending a dollar. It's it's a lot of money that they're investing. So they also need to trust that they're investing in safety and knowledge and experience. So yes, I I I love all this. Okay. Holy moly, this was so good. There was so much information in this little hour that we had. And honestly, I would have loved to have this as an aesthetician when I first started out. So I am very grateful for you and all that you're doing for this community. It's what we need. I think as aestheticians, we work so hard just to have a voice in this community because I feel like sometimes we will spend hours just investing into a patient and they'll say, Okay, well, I'll ask Doc and see what he has to say. And you're like, hello, like I'm I'm here. Like they don't even take any of these training. They don't know, like it's me. Yeah. So I get like that. We need this. We need more good, solid, science-based educators that are confident in their roles, that are successful in their roles, that can continue to grow other aestheticians in this industry. So thank you, Natalie, for everything that you're doing. Thank you so much for being a part of the Skintrovert. This has been a wonderful episode. And would you mind telling everybody where they can find you if they want to attend some of your master classes where they need to go?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:20

Yeah. So on Instagram, it's just at Lux and Lav on TikTok. On TikTok, on TikTok. It's my Luxin Lav. Um, because somebody stole my name. Oh. Just kidding. They had it since a long time ago. Um, but it's my Lux and Love. And so um, either like social media platform has it linked in my bio, all of my master classes, or you can just send me an inbox. I try, I do get a lot of messages a day, and it's mainly because people ask me questions, but I do try to respond to as many messages as I can a day. So if you send me an inbox with questions or how to access the masterclasses, I will nine out of 10 times I'm gonna see that message and answer it. Sometimes I get busy and Instagram hides your messages when you get a lot of them. I don't know if people know that, but starts hiding them. And so um I do try and answer as many as I can. But yeah, I'm I hope that you know, I'm not here to like prove I guess I'm not here to prove anything. I'm here to show what I do and I'm here to educate on why I do it. At the end of the day, like I said, everybody has different approaches. I do not, I'm not gonna talk bad about somebody for having a different approach, but my approach is my approach and it's what I do. That's why I don't understand when aestheticians like fight with me online because I'm like, girl, silly. Like go, go do you, I'll do me. But at the end of the day, I I really want to educate on why I do what I do. And I I try to do it from a place that's educational, not opinion-based necessarily. Yes. Um and I just I truly want to uplift my community. And when estheticians send me their before and afters after taking a class with me, and they're like, oh my God, look, like that is like really rewarding to me.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:11

That's the best. That is the best feeling. I I get it, I get it. And you're you're doing it. And yes, estheticians that are out there making those videos, slamming other aestheticians, just stop it. Okay. Grow this, grow this community, collaboration over competition. We already have other people coming for us, like uh scientists and other things. Let's just let our community grow each other and continue to learn. And yes, Natalie, you are doing exactly that. We adore you. We're grateful for you. Thank you so much for tuning in, guys. And if you um like this episode, if you have any feedback about this episode, you can always find me on all of my social media platforms, or you can email me at skintrovertsam at gmail.com. Thanks again, Natalie. Y'all have a wonderful rest of your day. Take care, guys. Bye. Bye. Think of the skin trovert as your aesthetics round table, not a training manual. This podcast is for professional education and discussion. It's not medical advice. Your scope of practice matters, regulations vary, and your license always leads. To continue the conversation, follow the skintrovert on Apple, Spotify, or any platform that you listen to your podcasts.